tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post5144894167240807202..comments2023-09-30T07:11:12.483-07:00Comments on pilgrimsteps: Who am I to say?....janahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06538362162139679868noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-14770190646744051792008-11-26T12:35:00.000-08:002008-11-26T12:35:00.000-08:00It's actually a direct quote from Wickman, who sai...It's actually a direct quote from Wickman, who said "Who am I to say that I am more handicapped, or suffering more, than someone else?"<BR/><BR/>I guess I meant the title to be somewhat ironic because I think what Oaks and Wickman are doing here is stating exactly that they _are_ the ones to "say" who is fit and who is not fit for marriage. Me, I find that troubling and feel that the agency to marry should be given to everyone--whether gay or disabled or not.<BR/><BR/>gs: thanks for comment. I'd add that I do now have difficulty understanding the dogmatism of mormon beliefs and actions, so in that sense maybe I am "someone who doesn't quite understand anymore." But I'm fine with that.janahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06538362162139679868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-40465926412762359442008-11-26T12:22:00.000-08:002008-11-26T12:22:00.000-08:00To anonymous: You imply that Jana once undeerstoo...To anonymous: You imply that Jana once undeerstood, but does not any longer, from which we can infer that she has learned, grown, and become more insightful and understanding.<BR/><BR/>Maybe that's the answer to the question, "Who am I to say?":<BR/><BR/>"I am one who has learned, and grown, and become more insightful and understanding."gshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01728098613576618648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-29397937646303218682008-11-26T11:56:00.000-08:002008-11-26T11:56:00.000-08:00To answer the question posed in your title: Maybe ...To answer the question posed in your title: Maybe you are someone who doesn't quite understand anymore?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-49079269320421199932008-11-23T14:53:00.000-08:002008-11-23T14:53:00.000-08:00Personally, I would bet that this guy is telling h...Personally, I would bet that this guy is telling his daughter that she can't marry b/c she's defective, hence her broken heart. Do we know that? No. But I just wouldn't be surprised to hear it.<BR/><BR/>If the LDS church truly believes that Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God and adheres to His teachings, this seems massively inconsistent with the teachings of Christ. Not being a Mormon, I obviously don't know a thing about their doctrine. But to imagine the lives that are ruined b/c of what these powerful, influential men have said has got to grieve the Holy Spirit. We are all fearfully and wonderfully made. Period, end of story.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02300243611666576522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-25991183367454746932008-11-16T00:18:00.000-08:002008-11-16T00:18:00.000-08:00I cannot believe they did that. Oh, wow, my pisse...I cannot believe they did that. Oh, wow, my pissed-off-ometer just went off the charts. Damn!angryyoungwomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07003381856900634195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-76749783110133934062008-11-14T13:43:00.000-08:002008-11-14T13:43:00.000-08:00That is an excellent question.Anytime someone trie...That is an excellent question.<BR/><BR/>Anytime someone tries to defend their anti-gay rights stance by using "Traditional" definition of marriage (as if tradition were even always best), it makes me want to scream. They don't even care that they've invented this definition to fit their arguments (as they have with the word "tolerance" and others) and most often their followers don't believe you when you point out that heterosexual monogamous marriage for love is incredibly new. <BR/><BR/>Because GOD started that tradition in the Garden of Eden with Adam and (st)Eve, and the rest of history and anthropology is just wrong.<BR/><BR/>*sigh*Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09374110841642375968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-58158871476519320192008-11-14T13:31:00.000-08:002008-11-14T13:31:00.000-08:00Methinks these men need a historian. What are the...Methinks these men need a historian. What are they talking about when they say an "institution that's been honored for thousands of years"?janahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06538362162139679868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-74278815190634083832008-11-14T13:19:00.000-08:002008-11-14T13:19:00.000-08:00I've found that nothing in that rambling and incre...I've found that nothing in that rambling and increcibly offensive and outrageous document makes any sense.<BR/><BR/>It is largely because of Oaks statements in that document that my parents have decided to forbid me from ever bringing a boyfriend/partner home, from ever mentioning homosexuality or my leaving the church, and them prohibiting me from communicating with my siblings:<BR/><BR/><I> PUBLIC AFFAIRS: At what point does showing that love cross the line into inadvertently endorsing behavior? If the son says, ‘Well, if you love me, can I bring my partner to our home to visit? Can we come for holidays?’ <BR/><BR/>ELDER OAKS: I can imagine that in most circumstances the parents would say, ‘Please don’t do that. Don’t put us into that position.’ Surely if there are children in the home who would be influenced by this example, the answer would likely be that. There would also be other factors that would make that the likely answer.<BR/><BR/>I can also imagine some circumstances in which it might be possible to say, ‘Yes, come, but don’t expect to stay overnight. Don’t expect to be a lengthy house guest. Don’t expect us to take you out and introduce you to our friends, or to deal with you in a public situation that would imply our approval of your “partnership.” <BR/><BR/>ELDER OAKS: We feel great compassion for parents whose love and protective instincts for their challenged children have moved them to some positions that are adversary to the Church. I hope the Lord will be merciful to parents whose love for their children has caused them to get into such traps.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>And just as destructive:<BR/><BR/><I>ELDER OAKS: Another point to be made about this is made in a question. If a couple who are cohabiting, happy, and committed to one another want to have their relationship called a marriage, why do they want that? Considering what they say they have, why do they want to add to it the legal status of marriage that has been honored and experienced for thousands of years?<BR/><BR/>ELDER OAKS: There are certain certain legal and social consequences and certain legitimacy — which if given to some relationship other than marriage between a man and a woman tend to degrade if not destroy the institution that’s been honored over so many thousands of years. Suddenly there’s a call to legalize it so they can feel better about themselves.<BR/><BR/>Suppose a person is making a living in some illegal behavior, but feels uneasy about it. (He may be a professional thief or he may be selling a service that is illegal, or whatever it may be.) Do we go out and legalize his behavior because he’s being discriminated against in his occupational choices or because he doesn’t feel well about what he’s doing and he wants a ‘feel good’ example, or he wants his behavior legitimized in the eyes of society or his family? </I><BR/><BR/>And my parents wonder why I don't feel welcome in their church.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09374110841642375968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-56530976470156649002008-11-14T13:10:00.000-08:002008-11-14T13:10:00.000-08:00Well, I know in some cases that disabled Mormons a...Well, I know in some cases that disabled Mormons aren't baptized because they aren't deemed capable of making the decision on their own. And the same disqualification would go for other Mormon rituals like those that occur in the temple.<BR/><BR/>So, if Courtney was disqualified from attending the temple because of her disability, she would also not be able to have a Mormon wedding, since those all happen in the temple. So...maybe that's what he meant? Just like gays have no hope of a "real" (read: temple) wedding, neither does his daughter? <BR/><BR/>So this leads me back to my earlier conundrum. Why do these LDS leaders even care how or who people outside of Mormonism marry? They can continue to control what happens in their temples, so why not allow for gays (and disabled people) to marry whoever and wherever they like?<BR/><BR/>Now, ironically, the temples tend to be very accessible for people with disabilities--they are designed with all manner of ramps, elevators, disabled restroom stalls, etc. All of the ordinances have accessible options. There are even special monthly sessions that are conducted in ASL and anyone with a hearing or visual impairment can get necessary accommodations at any time. When I did my temple ordinances, I was offered any necessary accommodation for my disability--even to the point of being a bit annoying ("yes, I can do that just fine" kind of annoying).janahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06538362162139679868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-1248050789191532542008-11-14T12:47:00.000-08:002008-11-14T12:47:00.000-08:00@ Avis"There are people with physical disabilities...@ Avis<BR/><BR/>"There are people with physical disabilities that prevent them from having any hope — in some cases any actual hope and in other cases any practical hope — of marriage." Exactly what disabilities would keep a person from getting married?"<BR/><BR/>My guess would be that, when entering into a contract (or covenant), there needs to be a certain amount of cognition as to what is being agreed to. For some who have no mental faculties to make decisions on their own, I would suspect that they cannot enter into a contract. <BR/><BR/>How does that relate to same gender attraction? I don't know.<BR/><BR/>As for Elder Wickman's daughter, we can only speculate as to the nature of her state. Though the fact that she sees and recognizes the marriage parties makes me wonder a little . . .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-47905246854134759212008-11-14T12:23:00.000-08:002008-11-14T12:23:00.000-08:00I've read this quote before, and I had the exact s...I've read this quote before, and I had the exact same reaction as so many other commenters here: "Wha...? So now <I>disabled people</I> can't get married either? What is that, proposition 9?"<BR/><BR/>But seriously, does he ever explain anywhere why his disabled daughter can't get married?C. L. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698855413639518095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-47762721258311659912008-11-14T11:29:00.000-08:002008-11-14T11:29:00.000-08:00Thanks for answering my question, Jana.And wow. I...Thanks for answering my question, Jana.<BR/><BR/>And wow. It all sounds so very complicated. I can't help but think it would be truly disabling to live with so very many complications constantly in mind.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-66531875290081642912008-11-14T09:57:00.000-08:002008-11-14T09:57:00.000-08:00I found the daughter bit quite disturbing.While wa...I found the daughter bit quite disturbing.<BR/><BR/>While watching 'This American Life', there was an episode about Michael Phillips, who "...was diagnosed with Werdnig-Hoffman, or to use the current parlance of our time, Spinal Muscular Atrophy. Basically, the signal from his brain to his muscles is very weak, thus they atrophy from lack of use.<BR/><BR/>Michael cannot sit, or stand, or breathe without the aid of a handy little machine and several feet of plastic hosing."<BR/><BR/>The episode was about how Michael and his mom weren't seeing eye-to-eye on everything, and Michael requires 100% on his mother for day-to-day life. Michael decided to 'branch out' in his life, and got an assistant to help out. Then he decided to get a girlfriend - which he did. You can watch the portion of the episode here:<BR/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ1N4XALqlM<BR/><BR/>While marriage is a different level than a 'girlfriend', I find it shocking that there's not even the hope of something happening. Seems almost like it's the father saying 'you shall not marry', instead of leaving it in God's hands, as it should be.<BR/><BR/>Quite simply, I don't see what married heterosexual couples have to loose by allowing gay people to marry. They're not boycotting/protesting various marriage-based game shows.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15577356140522435400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-34354031848981409352008-11-14T09:14:00.000-08:002008-11-14T09:14:00.000-08:00wow... there is no precedent with elder oaks or e...wow... there is no precedent with elder oaks or elder Wickman for marriage with a handicap? I had thought that marriages occured both amoung the mentally handicapped and the physically handicapped. not common, I'm sure... but not LEGALLY PROHIBITED!!! <BR/><BR/>poor elder wickman with his poor poor daughter. I don't know the situation but am feeling inclined to speculate: say she does happen to meet some young man in a similar situation and they desire to be recognized as married... is daddy going to forbid that? (perhaps on the ground that she can't have childern... or that she SHOULDN'T have children?!?)<BR/><BR/>god... all sorts of anger/bewilderment at the self-righteous audacity of bigotry displayed in those statements.galen dara https://www.blogger.com/profile/02987352194018060353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-17349766861525520332008-11-14T07:10:00.000-08:002008-11-14T07:10:00.000-08:00This attitude toward the disabled stands in stark ...This attitude toward the disabled stands in stark contrast to the work of a network of L'Arche communities started in France, now established in many countries. I heard about them in reading the work of Henri Nouwen, a Catholic priest from the Netherlands who lived the last decade of his life in daily communion with the disabled. He has written beautifully of the humanity and love that exists when these communities of disabled people live on their own terms with minimal assistance from those who have given their lives full time in their service. Although Nouwen never wrote directly of his own experience of homosexuality, he has written eloquently of the losses and loneliness he experienced from the need for true intimacy that he felt. He did, however, remain celibate and faithful to his vows as a priest. I'd recommend his "The Inner Voice of Love" or "The Return of the Prodigal Son" if you've never read his work.<BR/><BR/>Nouwen has actually kept me in the Mormon church for now. His theology is so close to many truths in Mormonism, and so beautifully eloquent. I try to slip in thoughts from his writing in church discussions whenever I can get away with it. To me, he's the apostle we never had but should have.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-65243456054344169252008-11-14T06:29:00.000-08:002008-11-14T06:29:00.000-08:00Breathtaking. I was thinking yesterday that perhap...Breathtaking. I was thinking yesterday that perhaps part of the church opposition to gay marriage (subconsciously) is that it destroys the comfortable feeling that homosexuality is all about sexual desire. If you accept gay marriage you also accept that gays want to have committed, long term relationships because that have the same sexual, emotional and spiritual bond with their partners as heterosexuals. That turns the Mormon God into a frighteningly cruel deity - denying anyone the fulfillment of that sort of relationship.<BR/><BR/>This comment makes me realize that, at least for some leaders, that's exactly how they view what they consider a loving Heavenly Father.<BR/><BR/>I have never felt further from the religion of my youth - nor more grateful that I left it when I did.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-89705577144258078222008-11-14T00:43:00.000-08:002008-11-14T00:43:00.000-08:00Maybe I'm assuming too much when I think that stat...Maybe I'm assuming too much when I think that statements like this marginalize the people who express them more than the people who they're targeting.<BR/><BR/>That probably doesn't do justice to the people "inside" who are still faithfully paying attention to statements from the leadership.John Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01148138073618817344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-28358309172518906952008-11-13T22:42:00.000-08:002008-11-13T22:42:00.000-08:00The assumptions in this excerpt, and in the interv...The assumptions in this excerpt, and in the interview as a whole, have haunted me all day.<BR/><BR/>Bothered, I brought it home to share after dinner. My partner, a gay woman with a severely mentally and physically handicapped sister, is aghast. <BR/><BR/>Arrogance, she believes, is at the root of such attitudes. She also believes that persecution is cyclical, and begets more persecution.<BR/><BR/>These conversations are important. Thank you, Jana.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-68812204582619502902008-11-13T20:44:00.000-08:002008-11-13T20:44:00.000-08:00Shawn:I wouldn't call it an LDS-bashing blog, alth...Shawn:<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't call it an LDS-bashing blog, although I do have my knickers in a twist right now about Prop 8 (I can't see any reason that Mormons felt entitled to advocate so fiercely to take away the marriage rights of non-Mormons). <BR/><BR/>I agree about walking by faith, btw. You can read my take on it <A HREF="http://pilgrimgirl.blogspot.com/2006/11/casting-faith.html" REL="nofollow">here</A> and <A HREF="http://pilgrimgirl.blogspot.com/2007/09/because-of-my-weakness.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<BR/><BR/>And,...I'm still a member of record as are John and the kids. But we typically sit with Friends on Sundays. We all stopped regularly attending the LDS church at the same time, making that decision as a family. (So don't be sad Shawn, because we're quite happy now.)janahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06538362162139679868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-6412158736024311982008-11-13T18:30:00.000-08:002008-11-13T18:30:00.000-08:00Wow! I hadn't realized that this was an LDS bash...Wow! I hadn't realized that this was an LDS bashing blog...<BR/><BR/>I will be sure to put on my armour before I read it from now on. <BR/><BR/>No one has all the answers, but if we walk by faith, then we will know what is right and wrong.<BR/><BR/>Sad to hear you are no longer a member, Jana. I am curious as to how long it has been? Is your husband also a Quaker and what about your kids?Shawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06653409740419287520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-33312353018798696502008-11-13T17:11:00.000-08:002008-11-13T17:11:00.000-08:00Rage. That's all I've got.And, I'm confused, are ...Rage. That's all I've got.<BR/><BR/>And, I'm confused, are these ignorant statements, in effect, calling into question existing temple marriages involving people with disabilities? Seems they are creating a framework for a whole new kind of witchhunt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-57726257524853769732008-11-13T16:17:00.000-08:002008-11-13T16:17:00.000-08:00i have no help to offer. just disgust and pain an...i have no help to offer. just disgust and pain and sadness that leaders of the church would spout such clearly ignorant ideas. if i can ever see my way past the anger and the hurt i feel in response to such statements, and to a productive response, i'll share.ameliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16516187741132836325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-20478694907777029532008-11-13T16:04:00.000-08:002008-11-13T16:04:00.000-08:00So with this analogy, is the Church now going to l...So with this analogy, is the Church now going to launch a political attack against the physically, mentally, or emotionally disabled so that they cannot marry?Alisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12881867656072259894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-856625290286541242008-11-13T15:25:00.000-08:002008-11-13T15:25:00.000-08:00Ugg...my usually compassionate and intelligent mom...Ugg...my usually compassionate and intelligent mom spouts this nonsense all the time about her gay brother. It's his cross to bear in this life, much like a handicap, she says.WendyPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05672308107331756391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14231518.post-69101007210483785032008-11-13T15:07:00.000-08:002008-11-13T15:07:00.000-08:00Oops, meant polygynous in my earlier comment, not ...Oops, meant polygynous in my earlier comment, not polyandrous....janahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06538362162139679868noreply@blogger.com